NA/TURBO/SUPERCHARGE How much did you spend?

Furai · Post by **Furai** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:32 pm

Donovan wrote:Go NA, just use a 13B bridgeport, yeeehaa.

Dont worry its been considered, 60Kg less and 200 odd PS...

Only issue is fuel consuption for a daily.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:36 pm

Pah, used to get under 10l/100 in my SIII RX7 with a 13b out of a series 4. Get a Rensis engine then, better economy out of one of those

I see that Mazda are making noises about making a RX9 based on the new MX5 platform. Hopefully they do, will be back to the weight of the first gen RX7's.

Anyway, what do you want. more power or better economy, the two don't go together (unless you go newer technology in a new motor)

2L out of an NC then??

Furai · Post by **Furai** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:13 pm

Donovan wrote:Pah, used to get under 10l/100 in my SIII RX7 with a 13b out of a series 4. Get a Rensis engine then, better economy out of one of those

I see that Mazda are making noises about making a RX9 based on the new MX5 platform. Hopefully they do, will be back to the weight of the first gen RX7's.

Anyway, what do you want. more power or better economy, the two don't go together (unless you go newer technology in a new motor)

2L out of an NC then??

I want a little bit more power but still driveable everyday. So more torque really. A ported 13B will drop that economy quick

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:36 pm

A J port or monster port yes, but a bridgeport, not so much. Just could do a mild port, since the 13b is making more torque than the 1.6 no worse off, just more economy wise.

Which I imagine if you squeeze more HP out of a NA engine your economy will suffer anyway. Anyone that tells me that they are putting more HP into an engine, and still going to drive it like a nanny around town so that the economy is no worse is a liar. Been there done that. If you have more power, chances are you going to use it, no matter how restrained you are.

Furai · Post by **Furai** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:45 pm

Donovan wrote:A J port or monster port yes, but a bridgeport, not so much. Just could do a mild port, since the 13b is making more torque than the 1.6 no worse off, just more economy wise.

Which I imagine if you squeeze more HP out of a NA engine your economy will suffer anyway. Anyone that tells me that they are putting more HP into an engine, and still going to drive it like a nanny around town so that the economy is no worse is a liar. Been there done that. If you have more power, chances are you going to use it, no matter how restrained you are.

Well I still have a long way to go and might change my mind, at the moment Im goign to upgrade the cooling, then Rollbar or brakes, and just get it set up for more power.

Its just videos like these that want to make me go NA.
http://youtu.be/MAYVFo6gVZM

http://youtu.be/c2MTdigVyt4

http://youtu.be/s_jjLqEKwWk

sprsta · Post by **sprsta** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:42 pm

Donovan wrote: Anyone that tells me that they are putting more HP into an engine, and still going to drive it like a nanny around town so that the economy is no worse is a liar. Been there done that. If you have more power, chances are you going to use it, no matter how restrained you are.

this!!!!

Mad Kiwi · Post by **Mad Kiwi** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:17 pm

What you are saying is quite correct, the reason Im quite fixed on NA is more the Balance and response. I am forever seeing videos of NA cars with less power than a Turbo version going just as if not more quickly.

This intrigues me. I have also seen this phenomena

But I wonder if the guys that are punting around well in a NA mx5 would not be quicker again in a more powerful MX5. I get the feeling we see and recognise these situations becasue they are unusual and more a reflection of the driver quality and car setup skills than the naturally aspirated and "balanced" car...

There really aren't many stories of MX5's being overpowered and not handling well due to excess power. .....That I have seen at least.

God even Donovan manages to punt his beast around pretty well with those horrendous shocks, standard springs, mexically fresh wheels and heat cycled to death tyres!

Imagine what he could do now he has his suspension on the right track and with real wheels, brakes that don't self ignite and some decent rubber

Skilfil · Post by **Skilfil** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:29 am

Well my ideal setup would be:

Peaky little 1.6 with a turbo for daily driving/road cruiser,
1.8 N/A for tracktime/twisty roads/ear explodingly rev happy fun.

Yep.. I plan on having two

Mad Kiwi · Post by **Mad Kiwi** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:49 am

OH for that budget!

Furai · Post by **Furai** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:18 pm

Mad Kiwi wrote:
This intrigues me. I have also seen this phenomena

But I wonder if the guys that are punting around well in a NA mx5 would not be quicker again in a more powerful MX5. I get the feeling we see and recognise these situations becasue they are unusual and more a reflection of the driver quality and car setup skills than the naturally aspirated and "balanced" car...

There really aren't many stories of MX5's being overpowered and not handling well due to excess power. .....That I have seen at least.

I guess you wouldn't post up a video of you being passed by everyone in your $10K NA Engine?

But then again people who cant drive usually aren't the type to go NA?

Its videos like this that make me think Turbos are not as easy to control.
http://youtu.be/PzDWhRrRe8k

Little bit exaggerated example as it has 300HP but you get the idea.

punkoutnz · Post by **punkoutnz** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:30 pm

In the wet with 300hp? Course it's gonna be hard to control!

Skilfil · Post by **Skilfil** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:33 pm

On a wet track like that anything that doesn't have traction aid will be sketchy. We can debate N/A vs FI, but at the end of the day its all about how much your personal choice outweighs what you want to do.

i.e do you want crazy power? Then get a V8 and stick two turbos on it. Do you want 200hp with not much hassle? Turbo your 1.6 or 1.8.

Do you want your MX5 to take a dump in a Hondas sandbox with its own screaming N/A? Then ITB your heart out.

We'd be a bit boring with all the same cars.

Mad Kiwi · Post by **Mad Kiwi** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:24 pm

Furai, what I see here is a lack of experience....not driving experience but having a go in a turbo'd car experience.

That vid you posted. ANY car would have problems in those conditions with whatever tyres he had.

I sincerely believe you have built up the NA v Boosted thing in your head to be a bigger issue than it really is (too much forum time i think...

...something I am vulnerable too as well I might add)

Anyway, what I am saying is that as soon as my car is sorted with paperwork etc you are welcome to take it for a drive on the street / motorway etc and even a go around Hampton next time I am there. You have the skill, of that I am in no doubt.

A real good example would have been the old turbo Motor that Kasey is going to install at some point. That comes on 6psi boost at 2500-2700 and is a sensation to drive. Not crazy but really torquey and just lovely.

My new motor is a bit less fun as it comes on to 8 psi boost a lot harder at 3600-4000 but even then is really driveable...(i have yet to turn it up to the 10 Keith was running, it needs some fine tuning in it's new enviroment)

So time to stop wondering and time to have a drive and find out for yourself properly!

Mad Kiwi · Post by **Mad Kiwi** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:26 pm

I would also add, driving Donovans car is a real joy as well. I haven't driven it in anger but a lovely road car it definitley is.

No real chassis issues that I could tell....

Furai · Post by **Furai** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:28 pm

Mad Kiwi wrote:Furai, what I see here is a lack of experience....not driving experience but having a go in a turbo'd car experience.

That vid you posted. ANY car would have problems in those conditions with whatever tyres he had.

I sincerely believe you have built up the NA v Boosted thing in your head to be a bigger issue than it really is (too much forum time i think... ...something I am vulnerable too as well I might add)

Anyway, what I am saying is that as soon as my car is sorted with paperwork etc you are welcome to take it for a drive on the street / motorway etc and even a go around Hampton next time I am there. You have the skill, of that I am in no doubt.

A real good example would have been the old turbo Motor that Kasey is going to install at some point. That comes on 6psi boost at 2500-2700 and is a sensation to drive. Not crazy but really torquey and just lovely.

My new motor is a bit less fun as it comes on to 8 psi boost a lot harder at 3600-4000 but even then is really driveable...(i have yet to turn it up to the 10 Keith was running, it needs some fine tuning in it's new enviroment)

So time to stop wondering and time to have a drive and find out for yourself properly!

I will have to take you up on that offer, see what all the fuss is about.

I think part of it is me wanting to be different but hey with 7 Billion in the world can you blame me

I dont think we will ever keep this thread on track Haha, Was supposed to be about how much you spent not what is better!~

Snapfrozen · Post by **Snapfrozen** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:47 pm

Skilfil wrote:
Do you want your MX5 to take a dump in a Hondas sandbox with its own screaming N/A? Then ITB your heart out.

To point out with 1.5k my EG civic on a 1.6L engine made 140wkw. Guarantee ITB's on an MX5 won't even come close to outperforming that. Ran a 13.8 quarter and I would have to pull my lap times but I was mid pack in Honda cup

That comes on 6psi boost at 2500-2700 and is a sensation to drive. Not crazy but really torquey and just lovely.

This is what my built engine will be about. Boost the entire way, nice smooth dyno curve and just a bit of extra punch.

The other thing is, alot of guys turbo cars when they feel they are "too slow". What they should've done is spend the money on seat time (Which you probably don't need). When you can't get your car to do what you want with more driver experience, deal with the engine then. Brakes, suspension, tyres, wheels, aero (If applicable) and safety first. THEN worry about power

Skilfil · Post by **Skilfil** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Snapfrozen wrote: To point out with 1.5k my EG civic on a 1.6L engine made 140wkw. Guarantee ITB's on an MX5 won't even come close to outperforming that. Ran a 13.8 quarter and I would have to pull my lap times but I was mid pack in Honda cup

Yeah to get near a Honda you'd have to be doing some fairly decent N/A mods. Probably get bugger all out of a MX5 1.8 with 1.5k spent.

To be honest if I wasn't in an MX5 now I think I would have gone down the Honda route, as light and quick around corners is more my style rather than skids and straight line speed like most of NZ seem to be.

Snapfrozen · Post by **Snapfrozen** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:56 pm

They ahve great flowing engines. Unfortunately the heads on our Bx engines suck donkey shlong

Mad Kiwi · Post by **Mad Kiwi** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:03 pm

Sorry for the indepth blabbing, I find this is helping me clarify my decisions as well. I was very much in your shoes about 18 months ago....engine wise at least...

The problem with different, is that it invariably costs way more or is a path that others have inevitably tried unsuccesfully before.

N/A, Rotary, S2000 transplant etc.

If it was generally a succesfull direction it is not going to remain "different"....

The Mazda 2.5 v6 was my biggest goal for awhile I studied many threads, then I saw the latest Holden V6 on the floor of my mechanics, They are unbelievably TINY with great, broad power so I got all enthused with that.

I still believe the holden aluminium V6 would be a GREAT package (very light, good torque, perfect size etc) but the work involved is too much...for my budget and that vehicle at least.

BUT, at the end of the day getting out and driving and particapating in events, track days etc is where the real fun and reward lie so i just bit the bullet and despite not really liking turbo engines either, am thrilled with the fun and events and people I have met having a working and hopefully reliable car (please lord don't let Murphy's law mess that up...!)

Turbo on a MX5 seemed the least hassle and the most cost effective, with the HUGEST pool of knowledge for reference...to me anyway.

Unfortunately I cant give costs as I bought both my packages complete...But I think Keith has outlined it pretty well.

$3500k on a NA engine is not going to give a hell of a lot more oomph, have questionable reliability, not be competitive to other brands / classes and very little resale....none of which apply to a turbo package.....(within reason)

"Wee1" will HOPEFULLY ready in the next 3-6 weeks. Will stay in touch and you are welcome to have a fang at any stage. Sway bars are my next requirement, then bigger wheels, megasquirt etc (will it ever end...?)

Mad Kiwi · Post by **Mad Kiwi** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:07 pm

Actually all that I say above is pending how 2low2c gets on with his NA race car.....if anyone can get them going he will.

I watch his progress and eventual racing with interest!

Angreal · Post by **Angreal** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:06 am

We'll have to see how my car goes eventually with all the stuff in it. Won't have mega power but should have enough to complement all the chassis parts I bought with the option to crank it up eventually... Next up is becoming a decent driver

You're right about driving time vs parts though... Helps if they're installed mind you

Snapfrozen · Post by **Snapfrozen** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:53 am

Google the US Spec Miata's. They're making about 120-150whp and throwing 10k at engines... Blueprinted engines, port and polish, exhaust, intake (Think theyre limited by cams...)... and need a rebuild every 10k

Furai · Post by **Furai** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:03 am

Snapfrozen wrote:Google the US Spec Miata's. They're making about 120-150whp and throwing 10k at engines... Blueprinted engines, port and polish, exhaust, intake (Think theyre limited by cams...)... and need a rebuild every 10k

They are in a spec racing class and need every last ounce to be and the top. I have several dyno sheets showing just ITBs on an engine getting between 116WHP to 125WHP.

With no restrictions its much cheaper. The RS Aizawa car cost just under $10k NZD and made 190WHP, so reliably its been sold on and daily driven.

I wouldn't bring race class motors into this, its a whole different game.

SLYDIT · Post by **SLYDIT** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:46 am

Na cars can be just as fast. As a turbo on the track but thats driving 10 10ths. You cant drive like that on the road. For me I went turbo so I could pass those dam useless muppets who in slow around corners and nail it on the straights or when you get cars who sit behind slow cars and dont pass. Having the power makes it more fun to drive and less stressfull. I think id stay na if I was building a track basher

WideOpenThrottle · Post by **WideOpenThrottle** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:27 pm

Look at it this way Furai...if you have lots of power then you dont have to thrash it....but if you dont have any power in the first place!........

NA/TURBO/SUPERCHARGE How much did you spend?

Who is online