Steering Rack Mounts

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:24 pm

I would like a little more feedback via the steering wheel, and wish to investigate the replacement of the rack mounts with solid items.

Are after market components available as is the case with some cars?
Has anyone made this modification and if so what were the results?

Advice will be much appreciated.

Trevor.

Anthug · Post by **Anthug** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:45 am

Hi Trevor,

There is a procedure here for removing the power steering:

http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/depower.php

Doing this and changing the anti-sway bars is an option.

Regards,

Anthony.

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:01 pm

Sincere thanks, but I am well aware of these options which are not in line with my requirements.

A tactile message via the steering is what I am after. With that in hand, all else is correctable and adds to the fun!!! N.B. I do not lack experience relative to motor racing, including a time when sticky tyres had not spoiled all the fun!!!

Cheers, Trevor.

Anthug · Post by **Anthug** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:53 pm

Hi Trevor,

George Stocks sell the SuperPro brand of bushes and the steering rack mounts are available.

Regards,

Anthony.

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:56 pm

Special thanks, I will check with them.

Trevor.

Growler · Post by **Growler** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:51 pm

Trevor wrote:Sincere thanks, but I am well aware of these options which are not in line with my requirements.

A tactile message via the steering is what I am after. With that in hand, all else is correctable and adds to the fun!!! N.B. I do not lack experience relative to motor racing, including a time when sticky tyres had not spoiled all the fun!!!

Cheers, Trevor.

You could always manufacture solid mounts for them yourself.
Do you know where the movement is?
It could be movement in the suspension more than the rack.

Growler.

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:27 pm

There is no movement/play as such and I simply wish to eliminate any tendency towards a spongy feel.

I intend to check exactly where shock absorbing has been incorporated between steering wheel and beyond, but had hoped someone might have previously tackled this and recorded prior experience.

Thanks, Trevor.

SLYDIT · Post by **SLYDIT** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:15 pm

if you want a more direct feel then i think the best place to start would be replacing the sway bar end links with either solid joints or poly bushes in the stock ones.

Growler · Post by **Growler** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:00 pm

Trevor wrote:There is no movement/play as such and I simply wish to eliminate any tendency towards a spongy feel.

I intend to check exactly where shock absorbing has been incorporated between steering wheel and beyond, but had hoped someone might have previously tackled this and recorded prior experience.

Thanks, Trevor.

I have never had issues with the steering at all so have never pulled the rack etc apart.
However...and this needs to be checked...on some makes of cars they have a rubber "joint" ...or "rag joint*" along the steering shaft which eliminates any vibration etc transfering through the shaft to the steering wheel. You can take this out and machine up a nylon replacement. This eliminates the "spongyness" (sp?) of the rubber.

Growler

*A Rag joint is a term used to refer to certain flexible joints found on automobiles. They are typically found on steering shafts that connect the steering wheel to the steering gear input shaft, usually at the steering gear end. They provide a small amount of flex for a steering shaft within a few degrees of the same plane as the steering gear input shaft. It also provides some damping of vibration coming from the steering system, providing some isolation for the steering wheel.

The joint consists of a piece of rubber about 1/2 inch thick and about 3 inches in diameter with reinforcing cords vulcanized in it, similar to a tire's. This disc is bolted or riveted to flanges mounted on the ends of the shafts to connect the steering wheel shaft to the steering gear. The cords can be seen on the edge of this piece of rubber, hence the term "Rag Joint".

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:34 pm

Special thanks for all your trouble.

Sorry, I regret that I was negligent in not specifying that I have a 1997 1800 with power steering, which does not incorporate rag joints.

Cheers, Trevor.

SLYDIT · Post by **SLYDIT** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:47 pm

what suspension are you running? what wheel and tyre combo are you running??

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:08 pm

My car is stock standard except for mods to provide me with a proper straight arm driving position. Smaller steering wheel moved forward and upwards. Pedals moved forwards. Seat cushion thickness reduced.

Post by **jif** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:32 pm

as SLydit has implied, tyres can make a large difference to the feel ... at one point I switched from Bridgestone Potenza RE71's to Firestone Firehawks. Same size, same wheels, same car.

The re71's were amazing, steering was telepathic (!) and the amount of feedback was frankly, incredible. I think this was the reeeealy stiff sidewalls , which also made parking a literal workout.

The Firehawks were mush - somewhere between riding on a marshmallow or a beanbag. Vague and indirect, although parking was a breeze.

With that in mind, perhaps some Bridgestone Adrenaline's would be the ticket

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:46 pm

The tyres on the car are as when purchased and they are near new, so I wish to get some wear out of them. I have never struck the brand before, i.e. Autobacs Maximum Excela 185/60 R14 82H. No doubt they are a cheap tyre, but I have no complaints with them.

I agree with you on the importance of stiff sidewalls. On my other car, a Subaru SVX, I have gone down in width and up in section for this very reason and with good results. I laugh at boy racers with stupidly wide tyres bulging out on standard width wheels. I presume they do not go very quickly, unless in a straight line.

The car records 108,000K and I have no reason to doubt this. However a compression check has disclosed readings of, 155/125/135/150 lbs sq. inch, so that I am seriously considering an overhaul of the head. Any recommendations regarding reliable outfits would be appreciated. A few years ago I would have done this myself, but have got passed the urge.

My previous open road car was Fiat 124 Spider. I never got to like it and find the MX5 much more satisfying. At the same time I also had Lotus seven, which I often drove on the road and happy to understand where compromise enters the picture in all things motoring. When it comes to fun on the road, I still have to give my old rubber suspended, 1275 Mini Cooper in racing trim/tune, the nod.

Post by **jif** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:35 pm

Hi Trevor - sounds like I'm preaching to the choir then

Autobacs is a huge chain store in Japan, like Repco or Supercheap , only much bigger - so those would be house brand tyres! They'll probably last forever ... but it means that chassis is more capable than the tyres, which could be fun if you're the throttle-steering type

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:49 pm

Great, when sticky tyres arrived on the scene, motor racing was ruined.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:29 pm

Trevor... Have a late 93 1.8 which came on 14s. Aquired some 15s with
'hard as' Bridgestones, and gave up waiting for them to wear out. Bit the bullet and fitted new 195/50 Toyo T1Rs...very pleased. Performance tyres combined with a 'sporting' wheel alignment are the single biggest improvement you can make to an otherwise standard MX5...and would come way before tying to remount your rack IMHO.
I might be inclined to run your car on a shock testing machine also...my original rears were on their way out with not many more ks than your car has.

Good luck.

poison · Post by **poison** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:02 am

I'd go with Toyo T1R's although having not driven with them I do have the brand new Bridgestone Adrenaline's on the front of my 2.4 Galant, and in the wet they understeer just as easily as the original tyres which were very well worn Toyo Advans which were I believe to be Toyo's middle of the range tyre. All in all I don't think the Adrenalines are anything special at all. And in the dry I haven't tried to understeer either.

I also seem to recall that with Toyo the T1-S used to be the Super Sticky sports tyre, and the T1-R is just the new version. As the T1-S had a great reputation.

And here is a quite good tyre review page;
http://www.ctyres.co.uk/tyres/toyo.php
Sadly the Bridgestone page is well out of date.

Growler · Post by **Growler** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:11 am

Trevor wrote:Great, when sticky tyres arrived on the scene, motor racing was ruined.

Motor racing wasn't ruined....we just went faster!!
What exactly are you trying to acheive? The best handling with what you have? A car that you have to set up in a four wheel drift to go around a corner? (Which most racers do anyway...) or what?
What tyre pressures do you run? That can make a difference.
Is this for track work or road use?

Growler.

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:20 pm

Growler, while growling, please post a photo of a modern "racer" in a four wheel drift. N.B. Stupid drifting does not constitute a motor race!

c

Be sure I require no instruction regarding that which is simplistic.

Cheers, Trevor.

Growler · Post by **Growler** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:54 pm

Trevor wrote:Growler, while growling, please post a photo of a modern "racer" in a four wheel drift. N.B. Stupid drifting does not constitute a motor race!

Most modern race cars (including Formula 1) do drift going around a corner. It's just that with todays technology it isn't as obvious as a 60's F1 car (Good 'ol Lotus 49B comes to mind!!).

Trevor wrote:Be sure I require no instruction regarding that which is simplistic.

I'm not even going to start to interpret this one!!

I have been involved with motorsport for at least 20 odd years with 8 of them building and racing a car nationally...
All I was trying to do was to asses what you are trying to achieve so I could offer advice.

Growling Growler.

Post by **zorruno** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:30 am

Trevor wrote:please post a photo of a modern "racer" in a four wheel drift

Mika?

Be sure I require no instruction regarding that which is simplistic.

I'm sure nobody is saying you do, or is trying to second guess your existing knowledge of MX5 suspension setup. They are just asking questions to try and help with you original request. How can people help you if they don't know what outcome you are trying to achieve?

Cheers
(being somewhat moderator-ish)

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:31 pm

“Being somewhat of a moderator” (my only means of addressing a hole in cyberspace), please read my opening post carefully.

Please do not read that which is not intended i.e. between the lines and that which could only be construed as offensive by one with a very thin skin.

My desire is to have a car which is as tactile as possible in order to enjoy the driving experience. Feel via hands and bum/back on seat. The existing overall handling is acceptable, all contingencies considered and and if it steps out of line I can put things right. The latter is greatly assisted if one has feel via the steering wheel and this is the point of query.

N.B. A car sliding on rain tyres does not constitute an illustration of a four wheel drift, regardless of the caption. LOL

My thanks to those who have replied in a positive manner, Trevor.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:20 pm

Trevor....

Can I respectfully suggest that you, as a relative newcomer to the forum and possibly MX5 ownership, need to be wary of making bold statements...such as the ones concerning modern tyres/motor racing, low profile tyres/handling, 'proper' straight arm driving position etc etc. There is very considerable experience amongst forum members in terms of car preparation and competition. Yes, you do need to sort thu the suggestions to determine what is 'right for you'... which is why it pays to preface a request for info with some paremeters about your car and its intended use.
Further to my earlier post re tyres, there is general consensus in the MX5/Miata world that to meet your stated requirements, you need to either ensure that your suspension is up to scratch in terms of original factory specs eg worn bushes (very common), poor alignment (very common), worn shocks (quite common) and budget/low grip tyres with incorrect pressures (quite common).
Alternatively, there are commonly accepted ways of enhancing the MX5s suspension and ultimately its driving experience.
Without doubt, the first and most rewarding in my opinion is to buy perfomance tyres (ones which are known to work well on MX5s). If this involves a change of rim size/width..choose carefully...your enemy here is overall weight, and to an extent offset (Brian Goodwin at Goodwin Racing in the States covers this on his website).
Urethane bushes, aftermarket shocks, uprated springs, sways and endlinks together with a performance wheel alignment will all point you the in the direction of a more 'tactile' feel. Early NA cars also benefit greatly from underbody bracing (from the later cars or aftermarket).

For what it is worth, at the risk of upsetting you, my car on the track has mild understeer mostly, occasional oversteer at the hairpin when I get it wrong and a delightful 4 wheel drift through 'Pothole Corner' in 4th gear...all on 'sticky' Yokohama race tyres and in dry..........sorry, no photos to prove it!

Good luck

Growler · Post by **Growler** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:07 pm

Trevor,

Just some advice before I give up completely on this thread.
Within this forum there is a vast wealth of information regarding all aspects of MX5's and general automotive knowledge.
Taking the right attitude when posting you can tap into this knowledge and gain experience that would normally take you years to gather or cost you money asking a garage etc.
All I read in your posts are sarcastic comments that are unnesessary and not condusive to healthy on-line/real-life relationships.

Now...the MX5 is a well balanced car and very controllable on the track (but underpowered!!...well...except for the turbo guys).
You get very good feedback from the car when on "the edge". You don't feel this just through the steering wheel. You "feel" the car and understand what it is doing while you are driving. You would feel the car "step-out" before you felt it in the steering wheel. Solid mounting the rack will not achieve this (In fact the rack is already bolted to the chassis/front crossmember).
With the standard setup, if you can't feel what the car is doing you either need to drive faster or give up completely!

Oh...and as for four wheel drifting...watch a V8 Supercar in slow motion going around a corner and see how much it moves...

Growler.