Raise the driving age?

[Quidam]

So I read in stuff today http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politic ... or-driving that the driving age could be raised.

With a number of high-profile crashes involving young teens, along with anacdotal evidence of seeing young people drive with a serious lack of maturity (regardless of driving skill) I personally am all for it.

In my view, 15 is just too young, although there are always exceptions.

Thoughts?

[WideOpenThrottle]

All it will do is shift the crash stats to slightly older drivers!

[Ben.Nakagawa]

Where I'm come from. We have to be 18 to get driving licence for car. Well, 16 for a motor cycle that is bit of worry, but you have to pass paper and practical test like getting a car driving licence and this one is bit harder. Yes, that is Japan. When I first heard it is 15 in this country, I was bit concerned (long time ago...) but I'm kind of get used to.
Those kids can relatively easily to buy high-performance car in these days and that is more concern than driving age, but raising age may help a bit.

[Habanero666]

I think a good system would be a cc limit, just like the motor cycle license set up.

[flushmiater]

I think compulsory 3rd party insurance would help quite a bit.

[Quidam]

Nice thoughts everyone.

It does seem that generally people are sceptical about the value of this but fundamentally, I just can't get past the idea that 15 is simply too young from a maturity POV. I mean maybe some 15 year olds are mature enough, but most aren't, and that's not their fault, it's just a question of them still being so young.

I also accept that some 16, 17, 18 heck 21 year olds are not mature enough to drive a car sensibly, but it is a numbers game surely -an extra year or 2 on from 15 and a lot of growing up happens during that period (hopefully)!

Having said all that, I agree that just raising the age is not enough by itself, and I think there are other aspects to this proposed law change, such as longer period of restricted license, and tougher tests. Personally, I'd feel good about driving the NZ roads knowing the bar has been raised on the standard of our drivers.

In other (and completely unrelated) news, I've just bought a Celica GT4 -pictures soon

[Ants]

I have always thought that the driving age in NZ is too low (except when I was 15!). Although many 15 year old kids can control a car very well, it is when they have to make quick decisions relating to driving in traffic that many problems occur. At that age, many are still in the 'bravado' mode and tend to think of themselves first, rather than the drivers around them. This also relates to the 'street racing' that goes on. Personally I believe that raising the minimum age to 17 would be a better idea.

Also, I believe that there should be limitations put on what a person can drive until they have had greater experience, be that through a specific defensive driving course component or through a set time. e.g. After completing a defensive driving course successfully, including emergency braking, skid control, considerate driving techniques and etiquette, and after having driven on the road for a year without causing any accidents, certain restrictions come off. Otherwise perhaps two or three years later if they don't complete a defensive driving course.

When thinking about the limitations to what type of car they can drive, I first thought of restrictions to engine size, but that really doesn't make sense as some larger-engined cars of the past are certainly not performance cars. I think it would be better if there was some kind of restriction on power output to weight ratio. Lets face it, putting a 15 yr old into a high performance car is often inviting problems.

I hope the government is looking at a raft of measures and not simply raising the age alone. Too many New Zealanders are killed on our roads due to inconsiderate and aggressive driving. We need to remember that outside our vehicles there are others. It is not just us on the road.

[dynofiend]

Its a good idea. Quidam has it right, its about reducing risk, not eliminating it. Anything you can do to reduce the risk is good.

You might get some bleeding heart liberals who moan about the lack of personal freedom, or the 'nanny state', but the fact of the matter is, I did just fine with a bicycle and skateboard till I was 23 (passed my test at 17 but couldnt afford a car till 23), and young drivers have been given the trust already, abused the privalege, and proved that they are unable to cope with the responsibility.

Compulsory 3rd party insurance really does help. There will always be those who choose to sit on the wrong side of the law, but the cost of insuring a performance car would undoubtably force those drivers who wish to stay on the right side of the law, to start driving in smaller engined vehicles for their first few years on the roads. The fact that you can quite legally go out and get a car which is comfortably able to exceed 250kph as your first car in NZ, combined with the younger generations infatuation with street racing and drifting, and its apparent disregard or disrespect for both the law, and basic common sense, sits very uncomfortably with me.

[Habanero666]

Its a good idea. Quidam has it right, its about reducing risk, not eliminating it. Anything you can do to reduce the risk is good.

You might get some bleeding heart liberals who moan about the lack of personal freedom, or the 'nanny state', but the fact of the matter is, I did just fine with a bicycle and skateboard till I was 23 (passed my test at 17 but couldnt afford a car till 23), and young drivers have been given the trust already, abused the privalege, and proved that they are unable to cope with the responsibility.

Compulsory 3rd party insurance really does help. There will always be those who choose to sit on the wrong side of the law, but the cost of insuring a performance car would undoubtably force those drivers who wish to stay on the right side of the law, to start driving in smaller engined vehicles for their first few years on the roads. The fact that you can quite legally go out and get a car which is comfortably able to exceed 250kph as your first car in NZ, combined with the younger generations infatuation with street racing and drifting, and its apparent disregard or disrespect for both the law, and basic common sense, sits very uncomfortably with me.

I second the above, except I put down the skateboard at 19 (due to breakage) and took up running! Haha and not from the law either

[Quidam]

Good stuff guys. You know there were things (when I was young) that I didn't appreciate not being allowed to do, but it was for my own good, and for the good of others. I don't really feel this is a liberal vs conservative issue (I'm quite liberal if the truth be known) it's about saving lives that are lost in tragic cirumstances. Driving is a big responsibility, you have to be up to it, not just from a technical POV, but also from a maturity one as well.

Putting young kids behind big powerful cars is just a stupid stupid thing to do, what else would you expect except trouble?

And about the skateboard, lets not talk about my wrist which I managed to break in two when I fell on my ass as a teenager. If that's what I could do without an engine, it's a good thing I didn't drive until I was in my twenties

[Ben.Nakagawa]

Just you might be interested in how most Japanese people get licence. Obviously we need paper test fist for road code, low, ethics and s on on. Once you have this you can be a behind the wheel with person who has full licence (I think that's what the person need may be need some more).

So much different, so far.

Now, normally parents do not take kid for training. They send to the driving school.

At there professionals instructor takes those kids but only in the enclosed facility made for variety of everyday situation.
A first so may hours, practice with instructor on passenger seat. After that and if instructor gave OK stump, so many hours by self within the same course. A instruction will be given by radio and instructor will be watching over from the top of the tower.

Next step is a practical test to get temporally licence within the same course.

When the kids pass this second test, then they can go outside with instructor and have to serve so many hours of training. Once instructor give the kids "ready', then there is a final practical test either with police or moot of case with a licensed driving instructor.

Finally go to the government facility to get registered , eye site checked ans get licence. We had to renew every 2 or 3 years when I was living there. It may be extended these days.

So basically, kids are already confident and having a defensive driving course already taken before actually driving on a public road at fist time.

Oh the fist full year of driving on public load with full licence, they have to have extra sticker on the car called "Beginner Mark - one looks like end of arrow with half yellow and half green".

PS. I said kid, but not necessary. I referred as kid because they after mostly about 18. (Only 18 years old can get final test.)

[Habanero666]

Wakaba

[Quidam]

Thanks for that Ben. Typical Japanese precision and thoroughness by the sounds of it, + nice pics to illustrate the point Habanero.

BTW Off topic but I spent a month in Japan when a mate of mine got married to a Japanese lady several years ago (he worked at the NZ Embassy in Tokyo). Culturally the place was so different! It almost seemed surreal to me. For starters no one ever jay-walked. No one ever littered, the place was spotless. And big black crows, and vending machines selling smokes and beer at every corner WTF! But everyone was very helpful and friendly, I always felt safe. So I put on a backpack and travelled North to south on the Shinkanzen (or whatever the heck it was called -the bullet train) with a JR Railpass, visiting all the major centres, staying a day or two and then on to the next town. Didn't quite make it to Okinawa, but got far enough to experience the hotpools in Bepu I'm talking swiming around naked in hot mud

Ended up meeting and travelling with with a number of stangers at various points in my journey, including a dodgy australian with a taste for japanese women and a North Korean guy who chopped one of his fingers off to avoid joining the army. I often wonder what became of him as in just a few days we became good mates. Fun times, almost can't believe I did it.

[Ben.Nakagawa]

Yes, "Wakaba" the second one is what I remembered and I used for first year. We need to put that on front and back. Thanks for pic!

I must say, In Japan, we still have boy racer problem, but at least some system is in place to make effort for training.

Quidam, Sound like you have enjoyed your stay. Bepu sound very nice and that is one of very famous hot pool in Japan!

[Timmo]

I think the issue is two fold.

Yes I think that the driving age should be raised slightly....but that isn't the crux of the matter. There are plenty of 15 year olds driving carts, formula fords etc with great skill and precision.

The emphasis, I believe, must be on driver training and skills otherwise all you'll achieve is raising the age of incompetance.

Just because one is older doesn't mean they have any idea about the physics or behaviour of a car- These things need to be taught. How many lay-people even know what their tyre pressures should be? How many lay-people know which wheels are driven on their car?

Our licensing system is far too easy and doesn't have enough of a practical component. My full drivers test consisted of driving around a couple of streets, then driving a couple of Kms down a straight piece of road at the legal speed....hardly an oppurtunity to demonstrate understanding of the technical beast at my control.

Ben- I lived in Tokyo (Ota-Ku in Tokyo just north of Kawasaki) for a year and often saw the driving schools around the place. There was even a park near where I lived that had a mini road circuit with markings etc for kids to practice on their bikes.

Im heading over to Japan again next year for a friends wedding too....better get practicing the ol' Nihongo

[Ben.Nakagawa]

Timmo, enjoy your visit. I lived in Koto-ku my brother is still living in that area.

Well, I agree that the training must be emphasise to make driver more knowledgeable for consequence of bad driving behaviour and so on. Yes to the basic check of own car (tyres, oil level and so on) should be a part of curriculum as I did in Japan's driving course.

[Quidam]

Timmo, while what you say makes sense, I still maintain that there are plenty of skillful young drivers on the road who routinely put other peoples lives at risk by treating the roads as their personal racetrack I place part of this issue on a simple lack of maturity. Raising the age to 17, imho would help to address that issue to at least some degree.

[dynofiend]

The emphasis, I believe, must be on driver training and skills otherwise all you'll achieve is raising the age of incompetance.

I disagree. Most accidents involving young drivers would not have been avoided had the driver had more driving instruction or lessons in car control or better physical abilities. The majority are caused by ingrained recklessness. Grossly excessive speed, no seatbelts, agressive manouvers, alcohol and or drugs and over confidence in their own abilities. There are only so many of these things that extended driving tests or car control skills can mitigate.

Education is the key, in all forms, not just driving skills.

[Ben.Nakagawa]

Education is the key, in all forms, not just driving skills.

I guess, you nailed it.

[Timmo]

The emphasis, I believe, must be on driver training and skills otherwise all you'll achieve is raising the age of incompetance.

I disagree. Most accidents involving young drivers would not have been avoided had the driver had more driving instruction or lessons in car control or better physical abilities. The majority are caused by ingrained recklessness. Grossly excessive speed, no seatbelts, agressive manouvers, alcohol and or drugs and over confidence in their own abilities. There are only so many of these things that extended driving tests or car control skills can mitigate.

Education is the key, in all forms, not just driving skills.

Well, we disagree and agree I think

That last part is the point I was also trying to make- Knowing what happens when stuff goes wrong, knowing what types of forces are involved and what the limitations of the mechanical components are, are things that reduce the drivers propensity to take risks.....Risks by not wearing seat belts, excessive speeding and driving under the influence of substances etc.

The term 'driving skill' encompasses this all I think- It is the holistic skills of the driver in calculating and limiting risk that needs to be better taught.

[WideOpenThrottle]

Would they be so reckless if somehow they could experience safely what its like to go thru a major crash as part of the training?

[Ian]

Raise the age to 17 or 18 at the very least (we are out of step with the rest of the world!)
Drastically improve driver training incl compulsory PROFESSIONAL lessons (an incompetent 40 yr old driver, and there are plenty of them, teaching their kids to drive is ludicrous)
5 yrly 'refresher' drives/road code tests with an instructor for ALL drivers, 50% funded by ACC.........I bet you, a random road code test of drivers over 25 would see most fail a road code test dismally! (Don't ask me how I know.....)
And lastly, a system of graduated liciences based on engine capacity. eg up to 1300cc, 1300-1600, 1600-2000, 2000 and over, forced induction from 25yrs..... Rack up a few demerit points and guess what...you don't graduate up the scale! Simple really - cause and effect.
When I was young, the very few 150mph capable cars- usually Italian supercars or similar, were owned and driven by wealthy middle aged businessmen, and usually rather sedately at that!
Give a kid a loaded revolver and tell him not to point it at anyone.....
But do we have the political will/nouse?
PS As an aside, I wonder how many people know that the President of AA New Zealand owns and races a 160mph Evo.......

[Trevor]

The emphasis, I believe, must be on driver training and skills otherwise all you'll achieve is raising the age of incompetance.

I disagree. Most accidents involving young drivers would not have been avoided had the driver had more driving instruction or lessons in car control or better physical abilities. The majority are caused by ingrained recklessness. Grossly excessive speed, no seatbelts, agressive manouvers, alcohol and or drugs and over confidence in their own abilities. There are only so many of these things that extended driving tests or car control skills can mitigate.

Education is the key, in all forms, not just driving skills.

Absolutely correct.

A lot of hoons are in fact very competent and skilled drivers, because driving is their dominant hobby. The same types will comprise danger in every and all types circumstance, quite apart from driving a car. The other person is, and always will be their last concern.

Shoving responsibility onto the innocent is undemocratic and stupid.

[poison]

The same types will comprise danger in every and all types circumstance, quite apart from driving a car. The other person is, and always will be their last concern.

I have to agree, sadly this seems to be the creed of modern western society, just look outside or watch TV, everything seems to be about "F**k everyone else, I'm having fun" hedonism seems to be the now. It will all get worse and I assume at some point it will all turn around again.

It shows up in even the simplest things, I stayed at a camp ground last Christmas and there was noise every night with people playing car stereos load after midnight, I remember as a kid at 10pm there was absolute silence at camp grounds, now you ask someone to turn down their stereo as there are kids asleep and they just get angry.

Driving age is a tricky one, in Auckland the public transport is crap unless you are on a main route, and requires multiple bus trips. So unless this improves dramatically young people will not be able to get to work especially in industrial areas. I think engine size and no forced induction limitations are the only way, just like the 250cc bike rule.

[Mark]

I think engine size and no forced induction limitations are the only way, just like the 250cc bike rule.

Nope. My 4.2 litre Safari isn't dangerous to drive because of engine power, and it's not so hard to get massive performance out of a 250cc bike, or a 1300cc rotary. There are so many anomalies to make it unworkable.
The average cheap $1,000 used jap-box shopping cart can still do at least 60% over the open road speed limit.

Don't forget that the road toll has been reducing as a total over the past couple of decades, despite more cars, more people, more miles done on the road.

I fear a bit about modern cars with ABS, traction, and stability control. That makes it harder for an inexperienced driver to go past the point of no return, but also means that the speed at which the point of no return is eventually reached is much higher, and the ability of the driver to recognise, react, and learn to correct the problem is gone.

I'd go for compulsory 3rd party insurance. In the past 10 years or so, not one of the 5 or more idiots who have pranged into any of our cars have had insurance. Reason is they can't afford the premium, and the truth is the roads would be much safer with them on buses or bicycles.
I bet they all passed their driving tests, and if the tests were twice as hard, they'd have still passed them - so as popular as it may be to whine that the tests are too easy, not enough instruction etc, I'd argue that would make very little difference.