re[2]: Update on stylebars

Mathew · Post by **Mathew** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 5:48 pm

According to what I have read, six point cages and the like are classed as "roll cages" rather than "roll bars" and need to be fully certified and padded. I can see that this is just going to be another one of those great laws that will attempt to protect a few people at the expense of annoying a significantly larger group of people. My bars are about 100mm from my head (through the seat) so I'm buggered if someone ever tries to enforce this legislation. If it ever gets to that, I'll probably do what I used to do with my illegally tinted Hardtop- remove it for W.O.F time and reinstall it afterwards. The legislation has only just come into play recently and I don't think there were many laws in place (about bars) before that so you could do pretty much whatever you wanted... but that may be a thing of the past. Its an interesting point you make about the Audi TT. There are also other convertibles like merc's with rollbars but I bet the lawmakers will have a clause that allo!
ws them if they are factory fitted.
Unfortunately, I think style bars' days are numbered!!!

M@

Grant · Post by **Grant** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:53 pm

Perhaps we should also point out that, if you are unlucky enough to drive a
Mitsubishi 4WD van, then you will hit your head on the top of the door frame
any time you take it off road. It hurts to! Definitely no padding there and
its much closer than any style bar that I have seen.
I did 160,000km in 5 years in one. Definitely not my favourite drive.
Grant.

Simon Lord · Post by **Simon Lord** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:23 pm

Surely the obvious action is to have the car WOF'd without the style bar in
place and then put it on afterwards if there is any doubt? Or am I missing
something here - like insurance wriggles?

I have to agree with the previous comment that if I were unfortunate enought
to have an accident which left me upside down, I would rather have a style
bar fastened to the top of the seat belt tower than the standard stiffening
bar which goes across nicely but not up.

I don't quite understand the point of the legislation. Surely action against
bull bars, which are likely to do far more damage to unprotected people who
aren't even choosing to be in the vehicle, are far more worthy of the
legislators' attention?

Simon
SR Ltd

Sean Craig · Post by **Sean Craig** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:43 am

I'll check with our cert guy but from what I know the rules are
different for two seaters and four. The boss has a half cages in his
AE86 that does not have to be certified because there is no back seats.
Anyway I'll find out for sure and let you know

Sean

lou Girardin · Post by **lou Girardin** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:21 pm

I think the point some are missing is that these are'style bars' they are not
structurally designed to support the car. While Ray Smith's bars did, in fact
do that, it was probably more good luck than good management. Don't count on
them protecting your noggin while the car is sliding down the road on them.
If you want protection, put in a properly certified roll bar or cage.
Lou

Sean Craig · Post by **Sean Craig** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:12 pm

I agree with you Lou (must be a first he he he he). I also have a
proper certified 1/2 roll cage (left over from Tim Nevinsons race
series that never got off the ground) that provides good protection.
For daily driving I have the 'style bar' in place as the roll bar has
mounting points behind the set ... meaning the set has to be forward
and as I'm 6ft+ it's to cramped for daily driving. I am looking at
getting a custom made 'style bar' made that has four mounting points so
that incase of a roll over it will provided some protection but I'm not
kidding myself by believing it will be as good as my 6 point mounted
roll cage
Sean

On Tuesday, Mar 11, 2003, at 14:21 Pacific/Auckland, lou Girardin wrote:

[...]

lou Girardin · Post by **lou Girardin** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:26 pm

It'd be interesting to know how many MX's have flipped. I only know of one,
and that went up a bank.
I think you'd have to try real hard to get one over.
Lou

Simon Lord · Post by **Simon Lord** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:46 pm

As I understand it, the problem with any car comes not with sliding but with
what they slide on to or into. This point was memorably demonstrated to me
last year during an Advanced Driver Training day at Pukekohe. The instructor
hurled an upside down bucket across the track, and it slid on the rim quite
happily all the way to the edge where, despite the fact that it had lost most
of its momentum, it promptly flipped when the leading edge touched the grass.

I agree entirely with the point about a proper roll cage, but for those of us
who don't want to do competition driving and and want to be able to use the
car normally in hood up/hood down configuration, a style bar must surely offer
a little more protection than nothing?

Grant · Post by **Grant** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 5:24 pm

Check this out:

http://fizzx.net/safety/

Might have been on the list before but worth a look.

Grant.

SLYDIT · Post by **SLYDIT** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 5:37 pm

I too agree with Lou about the Roll BAR issue. but

really if we are to make the choice between a race
spec bar and a style bar then that is our choice , not
thiers!! They wouldnt fail the car for not having a
bar so why must they fail it for having a style bar
and not roll bar???
My diy style bars sit well back from the seat and are
not very high so you simply cannot hit your head on
them. (I tried Matts scientific test!!).
It just reinforces my views on the LTSA that their initials stand for
LOAD of TOTALLY STUPID ASS*&^$S.(apologies for any one who takes offence)
How about we get a wrecked mx5 from Ross and bolt some
style bars to it and roll it down a hill for an
experiment. It may not convince the beancounters but
it would be fun!!
One final point...Who is the person responsible at
ltsa for taking submissions.Maybe we should get
political and lobby the ltsa on behalf of mx5 owners
to have the law clarified in our favour.

Post by **zorruno** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:12 pm

this discussion was in Nov last year. A couple more links there, but not
sure if they're still current
http://www.mx5club.org.nz/emaillists/nz ... g01808.sht

lou Girardin · Post by **lou Girardin** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 8:42 am

The story on the Miata that flipped illustrates the strength of the windscreen
header rail. A lot of people don't realise that that is a reinforced
structure. If a roll over crushes that, it will also squash a style bar.
If there is real concern over the risk, wear a helmet.
Lou

lou Girardin · Post by **lou Girardin** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 8:47 am

The LTSA are staffed by people such as the spokeswoman, who on TV, said that
4WD's are safer, because in an accident with a car, their occupants are more
likely to survive than the cars. This is new LTSA policy, survival of the
biggest.
Lou

Graeme Naisbitt · Post by **Graeme Naisbitt** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 3:21 pm

bugger, I only fitted mine on Thursday. I guess I'll have to take it off in
July when its due its test...

Graeme
D4NGER

Fletch · Post by **Fletch** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 9:58 pm

Franchise New Zealand magazine & website said...

...a style bar must surely offer a little more protection than nothing?

That depends entirely on how, and how well, its constructed, and as there are
no standards, you cant make any generalities...

I've seen some style bars that are very strong, rigid, and well made... and
others that wobble when you touch them...

The first, whilst definitely not up to a real roll-bar, may well prove
beneficial in some circumstances... the others? Well, I think you'll be very
lucky not to be hurt by them in a serious accident...

I wasnt aware that there had been new developments in the law regarding
style/roll bars... my previous understanding was that roll bars, being
"structural" needed certifying, and style bars, being "non-structural" did
not.

Fletch.

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